Question: Do you think it is possible to address the regional concerns without having some mention of that in the constitution? Something that would actually have the central government taking control of the regions?

SRSG Brahimi: I think it is there. The constitution does not provide every detail of what every minister and what every governor should do. I think, as you said, there is a strong presidential regime with a parliament that has all the powers, duties and responsibilities that a parliament has in a modern democracy. At the end of the day, all of this has to be translated from the paper that it is written on here into acts and implementation, both here and in the regions.

Ambassador Khalilzad: They decided for a centralized state. There was the idea that the provincial assemblies would nominate governors. I think at this time there was a sense that the state institutions at the center need to be strengthened. That the problem is not a center that is too strong and intrusive but that is not strong enough. Therefore the decision for a more centralized state rather than devolving powers from the center to the regions.

Question: How do you have an effective constitution in a country with no institutions in place? How do you translate what is on paper?

Ambassador Khalilzad: I don’t know whether I agree that there are no institutions. These institutions are nascent and need to be strengthened. There is a national army that is only at 5,500 men and it needs to get to 70,000 men. There is a national police that is only a couple thousand and it needs to get to 50-60,000. Of course everyone recognizes that national institutions in their nascent stages need to be strengthened. I think that is the view of most of the delegates that I have talked to here.

Question: I understand that a national army is being developed and that it will take years but what about a strong judiciary, a legal framework?

Ambassador Khalilzad: Nation and state building are not easy processes. The country has been through thirty years of war. This is a very good start in the various stages with regard to the constitution. They have got a good draft. As Mr. Brahimi said, the challenge now is one of implementation and there will obviously be difficulties. They have a good framework worked out.

SRSG Brahimi: They have a legal framework. You have got to fill the blanks now. And there are many.

Ambassador Khalilzad: Absolutely. But I think if you look at the several things that people were concerned about, particularly in the west one on the role of women, I think this Loya Jirga has improved that. Equality of citizens, men and women, is a revolutionary development for Afghanistan. Also on the role of freedom of religion, again, while it embraces Islam, it does say that adherents of other religions are free to practice their religions as well as practice their religious rights. This is an improvement of the Government draft.

I would say also on the language issue, recognizing local languages or the official languages of the area is revolutionary for this region. In none of the countries in this neighborhood is there this level of rights granted. So there are a lot of very positive things in terms of the aspirations that have been manifested here. We have to congratulate the people of Afghanistan and the participants here for having achieved that. Of course there is a long way to go to make the goals, the objectives into a reality for Afghanistan.

Question: How seriously do you take the very high level of disappointment among Pashtun delegates here? They definitely have said that they feel they have made concessions no the language. Do you think that this is something that will go beyond the Loya Jirga or is it just contained to this particular debate?

SRSG Brahimi: I said earlier that this is a huge success for the people of Afghanistan but in this process there are a lot of bruises, not only with the Pashtuns but with a lot of people.

Ambassador Khalilzad: Democracy is a very messy process.

SRSG Brahimi: It is up to everybody now to make sure that you build on what is positive and make sure that you pay attention to what is wrong. I think the Pashtuns feel that they have made concessions but I think in their last meeting today there was a sense that they had made concessions to Afghanistan. There is a sense of importance that goes along with those concessions. I think they have been recognized as a very important component of this nation, a thing that frankly they were doubting during these last years. I think that they have rediscovered that they are important and I think that this is rather a plus as far as they are concerned. Now, this is an institutional framework, this is a legal framework. The hard work is ahead and not behind us.

Ambassador Khalilzad: On the Pashtuns, I want to say one thing. As Lakhdar said, for the past years people have said that the Pashtuns have felt alienated and that they don’t have a sense of ownership. I think they came of age here. I think they came together and they were very effective participants. They rallied behind a strong presidential system and they supported the strengthening of national institutions, the implementation of agreements that have been made such as the Bonn Agreement, that they feel, justifiably in some cases, have not been fully implemented.

I think that this was a good moment for them in Afghanistan over the last two years and for Afghanistan. I think the reintegration, if you like, of the Pashtuns into the fold is one of the major successes of the Loya Jirga.

Question: What do you think needs to be done or could be done to ensure that when the next political forum takes place, such as the elections, that it isn’t something that people’s political orientation simply boils down into their ethnicity, that they are actually thinking about other issues?

Ambassador Khalilzad: Well, they did think about the other issues. Language is a very emotional issue, as you know. Surprisingly that became a focal point at the end but they had to deal with very tough issues and they did that very easily and at the very beginning.

The system of government – presidential versus parliamentary – that decision was arrived at very quickly. The role of religion was arrived at very quickly. The role of women, a very important issue, quickly came to judgment. At the end there were a couple of emotional issues. One, and I don’t know how important it is across the country, was dual citizenship for ministers. The other was the very emotional issue of language, which is related to people’s identities. I think they came to a very enlightened conclusion at the end. [inaudible]

SRSG Brahimi: [inaudible] For them, these problems were terribly important. It is not only the kind of government that you have but what is the status of your language. This is terribly important and we probably did not pay enough attention to these from the beginning.

Ambassador Khalilzad: We thought, or at least I did, that it was the relationship between the center and the region that was going to be the problem.

SRSG Brahimi: That was not the problem. That is a confirmation of something that we knew and that is that in spite of these strong differences of identity, the national identity is not in doubt, belonging to Afghanistan is not in doubt. We all have multiple identities but there is one identity that is not in doubt.

Ambassador Khalilzad: If they wanted to separate, they had multiple opportunities to do so but they did not so I agree with Lakhdar on that.

Question: What about the divisions in the Loya Jirga, has that been aggravated this week?

Ambassador Khalilzad: Well, during the process, of course, there were sanctions and difficulties but I think that they have come together very nicely and I suspect that you’ll see manifestation of that in the coming days.