High Commissioner: Good morning. First of all congratulations to you for getting here to…[inaudible] come part of the way by foot myself because of the traffic, traffic jams in Kabul. I have welcomed very much the opportunity to come here to Kabul, and hopefully to go later this morning to Mazar-I-Sharif. It was a priority for my office to be supportive of the human rights here in Afghanistan, and the timing of the visit was also very good as I was able to participate in the marking of International Women’s Day; the evening before I spoke to a number of women who had taken part in the three-day consultation and then I was impressed by what the Afghan women had decided was their human rights agenda. Yesterday in this room we had a very good human rights seminar. It was attended by Chairman Karzai, who as you know, made the statement to the effect that he would be establishing a truth commission and I very much welcome this and discussed it with him yesterday evening and have offered technical support. The workshop itself had a very good practical outcome of four working groups to continue over the coming weeks, discussion in four areas: one will deal with the Human Rights Commission; a second one will deal with human rights education; a third one will deal with transitional justice which covers the question of violations of the past, current violations and how to have accountability in the future, and the fourth one is on women’s rights and shall take the agenda of the International Women’s Day and focus particularly on the human rights aspects of that agenda.

I had discussions with a significant number of members of the Government. I have just come from a discussion with the Foreign Minister who had been away until yesterday afternoon, and I feel more informed on both complexity and the difficulties of making progress, but also the strengths that are here. I was very impressed by the commitment in civil society to ensure that now that there is a new window of opportunity that Afghanistan must go forward to peace and stability and a culture of human rights. I will be very happy to answer your questions.

Question: …[inaudible] Question on the setting-up of the truth commission, complexities involved and how to take into account the past 23 years of conflict and the right time to set it up.

High Commissioner: Obviously it is for the Interim Administration and the people of Kabul to decide when the time is right, but I would certainly encourage this. It is a process of eliciting the truth of what happened in the past and I think it should try to be comprehensive. There are good precedents, not least in South Africa where there was a willingness to look, in a very broad way, at the situation. We have helped truth and reconciliation commissions in Sierra Leone and in East Timor, and in different contexts we now have a lot of experience. It is extremely important for the families of those who have suffered terrible violations. It is the beginning of respect for the dignity of the individual. There is even a healing in the doing of it and there are also records that the United Nations has in the reports that have been made by the Special Rapporteur including the current Rapporteur and his predecessors, and I think it is necessary in order to move forward, that there is a willingness to face the culture of violence and impunity that has been a sad part of Afghanistan.

Question: …[inaudible] Question on ethnic tensions/violence in the north.

High Commissioner: I am impressed by the seriousness with which this is treated now by Chairman Karzai and indeed by the Foreign Minister Mr. Abdullah who I met this morning. The fact-finding mission that was sent clearly confirms the seriousness of the situation. I do not think it covered all the areas that Human Rights Watch covered but perhaps that is something that needs to be followed-up, but it has undoubtedly revealed very serious violations, including very serious rape and sexual violations of women. What has surprised those who have gone to investigate is that it has been so bad that despite the cultural inhibitions, women have spoken out about the extent to which there has been multiple rape and sexual assault on very young girls and horrible situations that have come to light. I understand that there is going to be a follow-up to the fact-finding mission. First of all I am assured by Chairman Karzai that the report will be published which I think is very important, and secondly there will be a follow-up of a mission to go visit the villages and to talk to the villagers to assure them that this will not be allowed to continue and in my discussions this morning I pressed the need to arrest the worst perpetrators and the Minister of Foreign Affairs gave me assurance that he felt it was important that there would be arrests, that there would not be impunity so it is being taken seriously and they are not that saying in anyway that it is not serious.

Question: …[inaudible] In discussing the truth commission and the need for it to be comprehensive, was it your impression that Chairman Karzai and the Foreign Minister would discuss the violations of human rights by those in the current Administration and Northern Alliance?

High Commissioner: I have the impression from Chairman Karzai that he wants to seek the truth about the past, that this truth commission would look at those issues, it would not be …[inaudible] in the context of Afghanistan, to look at a partial truth. The value of truth commissions is that it is prepared to examine. Obviously there may not be as much direct and valuable evidence when you go back much further, but nonetheless, Chairman Karzai asked me about the material that would be available from the Special Rapporteurs and I assured him that there is valuable information that has been reported to the Commission of Human Rights, it is in the public domain and we can certainly help by making sure that is gathered together. That covers the Taliban, elements of the Northern Alliance, the violence of the Russian period, all of that, quite fully.

Question: …[inaudible]

High Commissioner: Well first of all, Afghanistan is a priority of my office. It was so frustrating to work on human rights during the Taliban period and we did not do anything really very effective, and now there is an opportunity I have prioritised, including in our own capabilities and funding, and I have seconded to Mr. Brahimi a key human rights officer, Craig Mokhiber, who is here. I am very focused on practical steps which is why I was pleased that the workshop broke into working groups and committed to following-up, and they were very pleased that they got seed money of the budgets to each of the four working groups and this will be an important way of energising and giving focus to the human rights community here in Afghanistan. A community that is spread throughout Afghanistan, that creates human rights activists who have worked on human rights through very peak times. It is very important that this nucleus who were here, some 90 who were here for the workshop, go and talk with the networks and link with these working groups who would be able to bring an input.

I also had a very good discussion yesterday with the Minister of Education and we are going to give support for human rights to be introduced in textbooks and in the curriculum of primary and secondary schools. This we will do by having an expert come initially to assess the situation and then we will get the support of a project to help to do that. He has also asked that I would support a wider project on using television and radio to communicate with children and have a strong human rights component; that is beyond our capabilities but I think I will find ways to talk to others about it.

On the truth commission, as I have said, I have assured Chairman Karzai that we would be very keen to offer any support he would wish and also to look at the material that is already available through the mandate of the Special Rapporteur on Afghanistan. I am in a position where I am confident that donor governments want to be supportive of the human rights agenda, so if there are good projects they will be supported, and we have within our small office of the High Commissioner a fund for human rights activity, and I said to the workshop yesterday that I had earmarked US$50,000. They thought initially it was US$ 50 million, but I said no [laughter], but is US$50,000 and it is real and it is now and there are no bureaucratic formalities, and I hope it will support human rights work throughout Afghanistan, meaning groups getting trained in human rights, to be able to interact with women, with community workers, in schools etc, because this is part of what human rights is about. You work with, at the moment, the Interim Administration but also you work in empowering civil society. There is an openness, a hunger for human rights, and a hunger to know more about how the international standards can help.

Question: …[inaudible]

High Commissioner: This is a concern that has been raised to me by many people including in the workshop yesterday, and I am aware that there is this overall problem of those who participate in exercising power at the moment. At the dinner last night that included the Foreign Minister and the Minister of Women’s Affairs, Chairman Karzai spoke about his hopes for the truth commission and this morning I also spoke with the Foreign Minister about it and it certainly seems to me it is going to be set up and begin its work, and it is difficult to address in human rights perspective with the emphasis we would have it on accountability in a context that is still politically quite fragile, and I believe it is necessary to recognize how important stability is just at the moment. When I spoke about the report of the fact-finding mission, I was assured that this issue has been raised very strongly with some of those who have responsibilities in the area such as General Dostum and that this was raised in the meeting during last week when the commanders came together and it was addressed, and he was asked to take responsibility to ensure this did not continue where he had overall responsibility. So I recognise that here are difficulties and I recognize that for human rights people it is not acceptable that there are people in power who have records of violations of the past. That is what they say to me but I also know that human security is the top priority, it is the first thing that was mentioned to me. It is why people have pressed upon me to use my voice to have the ISAF extended, and I have asked Ministers that I have spoken to, every single one, everyone has strongly urged me that this would provide the breathing space.

There is as you know a meeting of the Governors today and the next couple of days, and part of the agenda is to try to build up what is the initial commitment of the commanders to start the process of decommissioning, basically of taking out the arms. The Governors have also been asked to support this. It is obviously going to be an extremely difficult process unless the international community gets fully behind it and I believe it would help greatly if ISAF were to be strategically present, not necessarily in huge numbers but strategically present in the various provinces to facilitate the process of disarming and beginning the process of forming a national army.

Question: …[inaudible] On the killing of the Minister of Aviation.

High Commissioner: I do not want to sound too optimistic. I am all too aware of the difficulties. That particular issue of the killing of the Minister was raised with me by two Ministers that I spoke to, who expressed their deep concern and one of them mentioned that one of the people who is apparently responsible, or believed to be responsible, is here in Kabul and openly here and was very concerned about that. So there is clearly a high degree of sensitivity and concern. I do not want to sound optimistic yet I can see the difference from the bleak period of the terrible years when human rights were not possible to address here in this society. What I am conveying, I think, is an urgency of not having the current situation unravel because the international community did not invest sufficiently in the situation of security, and that could happen I believe. That would worry me greatly.

Question: …[inaudible]

High Commissioner: On your first question, the fact-finding mission that followed the report of Human Rights Watch provided an important, a confirmation if you like, of the seriousness of the situation, but focused on the predominantly Uzbek Jumbesh and the predominantly Hazari areas, and the research that Human Rights Watch have done established that forces associated with the mainly Tajik Jamiat Islamic were also implicated in the serious abuses against the Pashtun community but the fact-finders did not go to the provinces of Baghlan and Kunduz, and therefore did not cover that part. Now that would worry me that there would be a connection about those who are abusing and I think it is extremely important that there be a further fact-finding into the other areas to complete the task and that there be follow-up of an objective across the board of the issue, so that is a problem. Sorry could you repeat your second question.

Question: …[inaudible] On the timing of setting up the truth commission.

High Commissioner: He certainly seemed to be interested in having technical advice, but probably, realistically, it would be the transition government which will establish the truth commission, but he wants the process to start now, that is what he said.

Question: …[inaudible]

High Commissioner: Certainly I have raised the issue of addressing discrimination, and in ensuring and I did this again this morning, ensuring that the Emergency Loya Jirga will be balanced between the ethnic groups and I got a positive assurance on that and I pressed the point that hopefully it will reflect what the women have put forward of a 25 percent participation of women, I think I got a more qualified assurance on that. It is clear that the Interim Administration is not sufficiently ethnically balanced to be a proper, appropriate balance for the longer term government. It would be extremely important for the transitional government, that it will reflect the overall situation and this will emerge from the [inaudible] Emergency Loya Jirga. I understand from the Chairman and two members of the Emergency Loya Jirga who were here in the workshop yesterday, I had separate meetings with the three of them, that the work of the Commission has been going quite well. They seem quite positive about it and they will be issuing their report on the criteria, qualifications on the 22 March I think. But again, it was interesting to get some feedback from them about their visits to the provinces where the issue of human security was the most present on everybody’s mind, but there was a support of the idea of an Emergency Loya Jirga, but the main concern was how to promote more security.

Question: …[inaudible] On her trip to Mazar-I-Sharif and meeting General Dostum.

High Commissioner: As I understand it he is here for this meeting that is taking place and I am very much hoping, they have an agenda that is very important as far as I am concerned. I just heard that the logistics are not certain, maybe that is one of the things that happens here, but I do hope to go there later this morning. I have a programme of meetings, with villagers, going to one village and meeting with a number of villagers, and meeting a representative of IDPs and it would be important, an opportunity to see first hand, probably direct evidence of the discrimination and violence and also the problem of IDPs.

Question: …[inaudible]

High Commissioner: Yes that would certainly be part of it. Yes there are a number of women who I hope are available to discuss this.

Question: …[inaudible]

High Commissioner: The Special Rapporteur on Afghanistan has been reporting on the massacres that have occurred, and in the period, if I can put it this way, before 11 September, we had a project for mapping the series of massacres and even the culture where when territory changed hands, either the Taliban or other elements of what is now called the Northern Alliance, would be involved in massacres, attacks on women, looting etc. I think it is now important to see where this truth commission will develop but also the Special Rapporteur would continue his work and our office continues this project of mapping in a way that maybe helpful to the truth commission. The pattern of massacres that has taken place.

Question: …[inaudible]

High Commissioner: I do not think I can comment in a more informed way then what I am reading in some news releases since I have been here. I probably know less than some of the journalists who have tried to cover this. I am concerned and for that reason I pressed for more information about the meeting that took place of the commanders during last this last week. I am told there has been a commitment to start the process of taking the guns, of disarmament and that this will be put to the Governors today for their support for this process. Everybody says that I address this to, and this is the Ministers, that this process also needs the support of the international community, and what I think they mean is it needs an ISAF presence to really underpin that this is going to be serious. And that is my worry that unless this does happen, then what you are describing could worsen, could become more volatile. There are other insecurities and what was said to me by Chairman Karzai himself was the fact that all Governors have come for this meeting is significant because they are wanting to relate to the Interim Administration and that in the context of that the importance of not allowing the kind of factional fighting or reopening of civil war type fighting. This must not be allowed to continue, but in fact I cannot give you any more direct information.

Question: Are you all concerned about the military effort that is happening here in Afghanistan and the …[inaudible] that the international community and especially the United States is going to forget about Afghanistan as happened in 1992?

High Commissioner: I think the point has been made sufficiently and projected to give me some sense that we learnt that it is most important that the international community stay committed. I understand the United States is prepared to train the new national army and obviously I very much welcome that. I find it a kind of interesting jump in looking at the situation. To me a very key issue, although it may seem strange that a human rights person would say it, human security is the basis for making progress on human rights. The key is what happens to the army. That the large number, very large number who hold guns at the moment; if they are to be reduced into what could be called a national army, at least two out of every three will have to be out of any armed position so what happens to them, and also what about pay for the army. If that issue is not addressed you have those who have been doing well when war was waging, they were being paid to do it, and they were using guns to pillage to increase their income. If they have no income now what is the consequence of that. So there are some gaps in what the international community is doing and analysing the situation it worries me. I think that one priority would be to put great emphasis on sorting out the development rapidly of a better trained, properly trained army.

The other issue that people have raised with me is the conduct of the police here in Kabul. The conduct under the curfew. These are untrained, undisciplined in that sense, and I have indicated that we would be prepared, again in a wider context, of other agencies being involved to bring in a human rights component to police training because that would be very important. There are a lot of issues and yet I go away from here realizing that the fundamental human rights issue is human security, and after that I think human rights could flourish in this country. There are knowledgeable Afghans who want a culture of human rights to replace a culture of violence and impunity.

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